Great work, but using code would make it much faster, but whatever :P ...an enchanted short sword or knife is a powerhouse of damage... Lol =) ,yet true... ...I don't have any solid numbers numbers... numbers numbers :D

I have numbers! I've actually been wanting to know about this for quite awhile. I have a good amount of data from wizard mode but I don't know what it means. Basically what I did was I tried out every weapon in it's end-game state (socm'd and enchanted) and copied down the information on character attack and defense values (from the shift-8 menu in wizard mode). I have this big chart but I don't know what it means. I'm guessing that "BD" is damage, "THV" is to-hit-value, "BV" is block value, and "BS" is block strength.... but what's "APC" and where oh where is the attack speed? If someone knows this information or can figure it out then I can interpret the chart correctly, if not then I'll interpret it incorrectly some other time. Also, does anyone have a mathematical understanding of how weapons train str / dex? This is very important in "no artificial limb" games (another thread?).

^Really? I still find it odd that APC is the same for every weapon! Do you think that I interpreted the other four values correctly? If so then I can mathematically give you the pro's and con's of all weapons!

I went source diving to get some of the information last night. I think I was about a third of the way through writing a preliminary version of all the notes you'd need to properly explain the combat engine after a few hours of work. The IVAN system is seriously mad crazy complex. But here's some notes I have. I'm pretty sure I messed up when copying down some notes on something that was done with a bit shift, so please keep in mind that there may be a wrong number, and if there is, it'll be a multiple of two. No, it won't be very organized. The strength requirement of an item is: 1.25 * 10^-10 * Weight ^ 2 * Size ^ 2 The hit strength of a weapon is: (Arm Strength) - (Strength Requirement) If you're dual-wielding, use combined arm strength and half the strength requirement. Weapon skill bonuses are equal to: 1000 + 50 * (Skill Level) Any weapon or armor's THVBonus (To Hit Bonus) is: Enchantment * 0.5 Move Ease is based on burden state: OverLoaded = 50 Stressed = 50 Burdened = 75 Unburdened = 100 Anything Else = 666 (Yeah. Shouldn't actually happen.) Your to-hit-value when unarmed is: Dexterity * sqrt(2.5 * perception) * (Move Ease) * (Unarmed skill bonus) * (10 + Gauntlet's THV Bonus) / 5000000 Your to-hit-value when armed is: If the hit strength of your weapon is 0 or less, 0 If your weapon's hit strength is less than 10 but over 0, pretend it was 10. Base = 2 * 10 ^ -11 * (Weapon's hit strength) * (Weapon class skill bonus) * (Specific weapon skill bonus) * (Move Ease) * 10000 / (1000 + weapon weight + (enchantment / 2)) ThisToHit = dexterity * sqrt(2.5 * perception); And your to-hit-value is ThisToHit * Base. There are, however, special cases, if your other arm is usable. If your other arm has no weapon, and the first arm's weapon is two handed and not a sheild: Add (other arm's dexterity) * sqrt(2.5 * perception) to ThisToHit. Then divide ThisToHit by two. If your other arm does have a weapon, and neither weapon is a shield: Divide ThisToHit by 1 + (500 * (Arm2's weapon weight)) / (1000 + (Arm1's weapon weight) / 2) The blocking modifier of a weapon is: Size * Roundness * 2. Multiply by an additional two for shields. Blocking value is: ToHitValue * Block Modifier / 10000 The blocking capability of a weapon: If you have no weapon or our weapon's hit strength is 0 or less, then 0. If you're still here, pretend your weapon's hit strength was at least 10. Blocking Capability is (hit strength) * (weapon's strength) * (weapon skill class bonus) * (specific weapon bonus) / 10000000 For each arm you block with: BlockStrength = GetBlockCapability BlockValue = GetBlockValue if either of those are 0, do nothing and give up on this function you'll block if: RAND() % int(100 + WeaponToHitValue / BlockValue / (1 << BlocksSinceLastTurn) * (100 + Success)) < 100) if you don't, give up on this function new damage is damage - blockstrength. Minimum is 0. lose (10000 / Arm Strength) stamina gain some strength based on the weight of the item you blocked with. gain some dex based on some crazy crud I can't be bothered to figure out (long DexExp = Weight ? Limit(75000L / Weight, 75L, 300L) : 300;) if you're dual-weilding, do that same experience for both arms receive some skill in your weapon based on relative strength of who you blocked the item you blocked with recieves damage equal to the ORIGINAL damage before block if what you blocked was an item (I THINK, could just be still existing) it recieves damage equal to the difference between original and new damages if your blocks since last turn isn't 16 yet, add one to that count. Dodging attacks: if the attacker can't be seen by the target, double ToHitValue if the target can't be seen by the attacker, double DodgeValue if the attacker is confused, multiply ToHitValue by 0.75 if the attacker is fainting, halve ToHitValue if the attacker is exhausted, multiply ToHitValue by 0.75 if the target is fainting, halve DodgeValue if the target is exhausted, multiply DodgeValue by 0.75 If it's going to be a critical, target won't dodge. If it's a forced hit, target won't dodge. Chance of dodge is: RAND() % int(100 + ToHitValue / DodgeValue * (100 + Success)) < 100 A comment in the source says this means: /* Effectively, the average chance to hit is 100% / (DV/THV + 1). */ Successfully dodging attacks trains agility and perception (twice as much agility) Damage is boosted Success percent. (100 damage, 4 success = 104 damage). Two thirds of the time, one more point is added to damage. A critical hit adds an extra half to damage, then adds one more point. !!! BodyPart = ChooseBodyPartToReceiveHit(ToHitValue, DodgeValue) Only can block if it's not a critical, and it did damage, and this attack is blockable If you're doing something, you won't block (I think that's what that line means.) If you have something in your right hand, it'll try to block with it. If there's still damage, you have something in your left, and (I think) there's still a weapon to attack you with, you'll block with your left. Someone else should feel free to try to organize that better. That might not be the entirety of the dodge function, by the way. I don't remember.

Hm, that's interesting. So Rondol the Kobold can usually hit my vitals because he has a spectacular hit value? Does the ChooseBodyPartToReceiveHit function pick limbs if the hit/dodge ratio is low?

Here is the data I have from awhile back. I wielded every item in its endgame state with 30 str and 30 dex and copied down the "BD", "THV", "BV", and "BS" values from the shift-8 menu in wizard mode, which in this analysis I am assuming are "damage", "to-hit-value", "block value", and "block strength" respectively. Weapon speed decreases drastically as it's weight and size approach your maximum wielding capacity, but lighter weapons have practically no effect. It seems that if you do not get a "This item is extremely difficult / somewhat hard for you to use" message, you swing all items at the same speed, so I didn't copy down the "APC" (it's the same for all weapons). Weapons are socm'd to the material next to the category name and enchanted to +5 unless otherwise stated. If there are two numbers for damage then the first one is when you're using the weapon with both hands (the rest of the stats stay the same when using one or two hands). Format is BD, THV / BV, BS. Raw Data: Short Swords (adamant) dagger 12-21, 47 / 7, 15 short sword 14-25, 38 / 8, 20 *saal'thul 18-31, 41 / 5, 28 sickle 13-24, 38 / 6, 12 *gorovits family sickle 17-29, 35 / 21, 13 Long Swords (adamant) long sword 16-28, 31 / 7, 22 *flamingsword 17-29, 31 / 7, 22 bastard sword (diamond) 21-37, 15-26, 37 / 14, 27 two-handed sword (diamond) 24-42, 17-30, 31 / 14, 35 *two-handed sword (valpurium, get it from valpurus) 26-44, 18-32, 33 / 15, 45 two-handed scimitar (diamond) 26-45, 18-32, 30 / 12, 31 **justifier (+16) (material unchanged) 35-60, 68 / 34, 71 Polearms (diamond) spear 18-31, 12-22, 35 / 13, 15 *vermis (adamant) 30-51, 21-36, 35 / 15, 22 scythe 18-32, 13-23, 34 / 13, 11 halbred 23-40, 16-28, 29 / 19, 27 *mjolak 29-50, 21-36, 28 / 20, 35 Axes (adamant) pick-axe 19-32, 13-23, 28 / 8, 18 axe 21-37, 15-26, 29 / 7, 19 battle-axe 25-42, 17-30, 26 / 17, 22 Blunt Weapons (adamant) hammer 14-24, 32 / 5, 20 *thunderhammer 26-44, 18-31, 29 / 5, 31 gorovits family hammer 29-49, 20-35, 25 / 9, 26 war hammer 21-37, 15-26, 26 / 6, 24 mace 24-42, 17-30, 25 / 10, 26 *turox (diamond) 30-51, 21-36, 31 / 16, 27 *neerc se-ulb (+6) (material unchanged) (two hands only) 31-53, 24 / 16, 26 quarterstaff (octiron) (two hands only) 23-40, 26 / 11, 22 *staff of wonderous smells (octiron) (two hands only) 24-42, 27 / 12, 25 Whips (spider silk) whip 12-21, 57 / 4, 5 runed whip 16-27, 53 / 4, 6 *whip of thievery / chameleon whip 19-32, 47 / 4, 7 Shields octiron 119 BV, 25 BS valpurium 87 BV, 35 BS Problems: All data is for the item in its endgame state. It doesn't care about the UT or the first eight levels of GC, which is most of the game. All these items were wielded with 30 str and 30 dex. Even though the str and dex are identical when using the items, these stats are certainly not representative of the stats that you will have if you choose to use that item. In other words, the data is very skewed. On a similar note, my analysis will not consider the important factor of how these weapons train stats in rating these weapons. Interestingly enough, both of these problems are nonexistant for those who use artificial limbs. However, the data is probably alright for telling you "the best of each type of weapon." This list will not include the Justifier. Best from each category: short sword: saal'thul sickle: family sickle 1h longsword: flamingsword 2h longsword: valpurium two-hander spear: vermis halbred: mjolak hammer: thunder hammer mace: turox, neerc quarterstaff: staff of smells whips: thievery whip There is no scythe and no axe. There are two maces. These are the weapons I keep an eye out for. I am very attracted to strong weapons and shiny pieces of armor. I know that many of you dislike named weapons because of the difficulty increase, but personally I never notice it. Now, completely ignoring the str / dex issue (or pretending we have artificial limbs), I am going to rank "the best from each category" relative to each other. Basically, I divide the eleven weapons into three tiers in each of the four categories, then based on these tiers rank the eleven items offensively and defensively. The items are also ranked within their tiers (i.e. neerc > vermis > mjolak for BD), albeit somewhat casually due to ties and especially when we come to the final offensive and defensive rank. This section does not consider weapon special abilities. Format is top tier, middle tier, bottom tier: BD: neerc vermis mjolak turox thievery whip valpurium 2h saal'thul thunderhammer staff of smells flamingsword family sickle THV: thievery whip saal'thul family sickle vermis valpurium 2h flamingsword turox thunderhammer mjolak staff of smells neerc BV: family sickle mjolak neerc turox vermis valpurium 2h staff of smells flamingsword saal'thul thunderhammer whip BS: valpurium 2h mjolak thunderhammer saal'thul turox neerc staff of smells flamingsword vermis sickle whip Best offensively vermis thievery whip saal'thul turox neerc mjolak valpurium 2h thunderhammer flamingsword family sickle staff of smells Best defensively mjolak valpurium 2h neerc turox vermis staff of smells family sickle saal'thul thunderhammer flamingsword thievery whip The reason why I didn't combine Best Offensively and Best Defensively together into "Best Weapon" or something like that is because I found out that a weapon's offensive capabilties are tremendously more important to me than a weapon's defensive capabilities. (I played my last game with a diamond Mjolak (ranked #1 for defense) and at no point did its defensive capabilities shine (possibly because I detonated anything dangerous with gunpowder). On the other hand, thievery whips (top tier offensively, last place defensively) rocked.) Now, something I feel totally unqualified for: Best special whip ?thunderhammer? ?vermis? ?neerc? saal'thul turox flamingsword mjolak ?staff? sickle (indestructible! whip and neerc are too) valpurium 2h (light source! thunderhammer and flamingsword are too) Well that was totally subjective. Anyway, keep in mind that "Best Offensive/Defensive" are not including special abilities. Factoring in special abilties will bump things around a bit. The reason that I didn't do it myself is because I feel unqualified for it. (No, I don't know how awesome dual thunderhammers are offensively because I've never done it.) (Maybe people who have played with the special weapons should write reviews for them? (another thread?)) So really the only thing that all that information was good for was to tell you the best item from each category. It was pretty obvious without the numbers (it's just the named items...). I guess it also told you what items are good at accuracy, damage, blocking etc. but Arakun already told you that at the top. Oh well. But maybe the raw data can help others in the future?

Reviving for relavency.

I find myself stuck like glue to Saal'thu and Vermis because of the built-in abilities. How do others manage to have invisibility, fire-resistance, tele-control, and poly-control (the dead minimum, from my POV) with only the three ring\cloak slots? With this duo, I've got a spare slot for infravision, or electricity resistance, or whatever I need. Without them, I'm dead meat. I have experimented a bit with a mystic dark frog as a pet, but I WANT TO LIVE, and the frog can't keep up. There aren't enough blink dogs to keep tele-control up, and the gods are too random. How do you guys manage it without Vermis and Saal'thu? Do you do without? I want to fool with other weapon groups, but nothing else provides this boost (that I know of)? Seerc (sp?) is awesome, and I suppose I COULD dual-wield'em with Vermis, and that would be ok, but the AS requirements are pretty high for my play style (AS 32 minimum). Likewise dual-whips, Mjolak, 2H swords, etc.

Revivals are bad. If you meet a blink dog, wait and don't kill it, it will summon its kin. Kill them only when there are lots of them around you. Telecontrol obtained from eating should last for long (and if it ends, you can save some of them for later). You could try to wield the staff of wondrous smells from time to time and spend some time in its blue vapour to gain good abilities. ESP is harder to keep.

I usually just do without -- relying on the off chance of finding a specific artifact weapon is just too much for me. I pretty much always do with what I get, augmented by some polypiling and cloneing/mirroring of scrolls. As for the weapon choice I usually just go with the best weapon I find in UT1 (or first if I dont' find something awesome, like a +3 mithril battle axe to replace my runed leather whip).

Keep in mind revivals aren't INCREDIBLY bad if it actually has some usefull-ish info, and doesn't just say, "LMAO!!!!" in which case, it's bad, and the topic should be locked or ignored, immediatly. (sp)

This (and my own weapon-group discussion topic) are two that I dont mind seeing revived, except when it's as somagu said some dumbass saying "Haha!"

What? I didn't quite catch that... Even though I read it 3 times.... Oh, nevermind, yeah, I know, I shouldn't respond to resurrections.... But feh.... *goes back to corner and sits while staring at wall*

what? Huh? No? Respond? This is a good topic. I like it. And I like the revival. I was agreeing with you. Put the cocaine away man.

Oh.... *shifty eyes and puts a small bag away* Right.... Uh... I'mma play some more IVaN now..